“You need an hour per minute of music, minimum.”
I recently had the privilege and joy of interviewing Dr. Gillian MacKay for my culminating assignment in Third Year Conducting at the Faculty of Music! Some of my peers have expressed interest in reading the transcript, so here it is; slightly edited for clarity, but largely untouched.
K: First thing’s first; I have my phone, so now I don’t have to write anything. Hi, I’m Kevin!
G: Hi Kevin, I’m Gillian! -chuckles-
K: Good to see you! Imaginary handshake!
G: Yep!
K: -laughs- Okay, so. Some cool things I thought I’d ask you about, that I saw at today’s rehearsal… maybe we’ll start with that?
G: Mmkay.
K: You’re very good, at… making critiques in a collaborative way. So, for instance—and I know you don’t need me to tell you this; I’m not telling you or just flattering you, I just thought this was so cool—you were able to just stop conducting; you don’t even need to cut them off. They’re still on you, they go “Oh, we stopped playing; what’s up?” You give them the critique in a way that’s like, not “The brass intonation is off;” it’s like, “I’m going to take out the piano and the percussion, so you don’t have a reference and you can find out for yourself what’s wrong.” And then you bring them back in. And this happens in like five seconds.
G: Mhm.
K: They stop, they find the problem, and they start again. They’ve fixed it within like, 20 seconds. And you move on! So it’s so efficient, because—oh, I went to look for you in Boyd Neel, but I went “Oh no, they’re probably prepping for the concert in MacMillan.”
Not only are you being efficient with your time with the players, but also the logistical issue of being in MacMillan, and getting them together in this space at the same time. Where did you learn that, how did you come up with this, and how do you hold their focus over two hours? With five pieces, 30 musicians.
G: Well, we don’t always sortof move as quickly as we moved today. We’re starting to ramp up for the concert, so I’m starting to try and get them to do more playing, and less me… teaching stuff. So let’s see… part of it is that with these players; usually as soon as the problem is exposed, they can use their ears to create a solution. So part of it is allowing them to know what’s going on.
That moment in Traveller where they’re all playing dadaDAdup BAdadadup—but it’s all crossed, passed—it changed immediately as soon as they understood that that was going on, so then they started to parse things out in their ears just a little bit better. You just figure that out over time, always remembering that they don’t have the score.
K: Yup.
G: So my advantage because I have the score, and I know the piece, is then I can help illuminate for them and help guide their listening. So with that as a motivation, then it’s a matter of finding out the best way to say that, and just help shine a light on things they’re not hearing clearly or don’t know what to listen for.
So how do you get so you can do that? Well y’know, I always say that the best thing you can do to learn how to rehearse is to learn how to practice. That’s kinda what practicing is. Listening carefully to yourself, having a sense in your mind about what the structure of something is, and then going forward from there.
K: And that way when you walk in, it’s not like the issue is new or completely a surprise; you have something to work from.
G: Yes, and because I understand how the score is put together, then I can anticipate some of that. When I know how it’s structured, then I can say: “Oh, that’s because they’re not hearing it; so let me unpack it a little bit so they can understand how it’s structured.” Then their understanding; their expertise as players can be brought to bear fruit.
And then if I have to, then I’ll say “No… it’s sharp” or “No, it’s too long.” Or whatever.
K: That’s so cool though! And that’s a thing I noted, again, at rehearsal as well. That’s just really neat that you have the score in your head. Not even looking down; this bar number, these parts. How long does it take for you to get to know the score, and what are the issues of not knowing the score? Like, kinda both sides of that coin—because for you, it’s always the one; and for students, it’s always the other.
G: Yeah. So the thing I always tell my students is that you need an hour per minute of music, minimum. Right? So something like Traveller, 13 minutes long… and as you get o-o-old—
K: -chuckles and scoots over to see the score-
G: —so I’ve conducted this three times now. So I, y’know, I do know it. You’re just gonna… spend some time with it. But it’s, again, like anything. You’re a pianist, right? So you sit down with the Beethoven, first movement. You figure out the form, and once you’ve figured out how it’s structured then you get the tree; then you hang the the—
K: And then you get the little nitty-gritty once you get the big picture?
G: —yeah! So you zoom in and you zoom out.
K: So I guess to some extent, score study has been a little easier for me than my peers. Because I can think more vertically, perhaps, than some instrumentalists.
G: Absolutely.
K: But at the same time, it’s still such a huge jump, right? “More vertically” is still ten fingers on… that—
G: Yep! -laughs-
K: —on two staves! This is a hundred people on this, sometimes.
G: And everyone with a different instrument. So here’s that moment -refers to tricky section in Traveller- that we were looking at, right?
K: badaDAdup
G: It goes badaDEEdadadup…
K: And then it jumps over there.
G: Yeah, so everybody’s got it and it’s all jumbled together, so until today it sounded like “blaaaaAAAAArgh rarararaRAAAWR” but it started to stabilize. And we’ll look at it again, but…
K: And that was what you did—you took a little bit of that out. Just the pieces that weren’t fitting together, right?
G: Yeah, yeah. And that’s just basic, uh, motor vehicle repair. Right? You figure out what part’s not working, you take it out; figure out whatever makes it hard or is not necessary. You take that out. If—there have been moments in this where we’ve done, like… lemme get to 67… the tempo changes and this whole chunk is them jumping in and out all the time; they’re all dadaDAdadup dadDAdadup BAdaDAdadup—so all this stuff, we’ve done this just by saying the parts.
We took all the instruments away, cause of the volume of the notes and everything, just so they get a sense of the flow of the rhythm.
K: So not even in the group, but as musicians… you’re distilling the musicianship down into the essentials.
G: Yep. And, y’know, that’s just practice technique. Take out the thing that’s hard, fiddle with it, gradually put it in and put it in context, and start the car up; see if it works, right?
K: Okay! So on that note… regarding score study and TLC for practice technique and then how that applies in rehearsal: What else are big-picture things that are always in your head when you’re conducting? Like, what’s important?
G: Well… to listen.
K: Ears.
G: Yep. You can get away with a lot of other stuff if your ears work. Cause if you can hear what’s going on and you can respond to it in a way that’s going to make it better, then you can… your technique is going to support that. But you could have the best technique in the world; if you don’t know what’s going on, then it’s hard.
And that’s why score study is so important—part of hearing is having a good, detailed expectation of what we’re supposed to be hearing.
K: Yeah. And then lining those things up between the ensemble and what the score is, is that middle link where a conductor stands.
G: Mhm.
K: That’s something Jeff says a lot too! Cause the technique is so important, but it’s also just a tool to facilitate lining things up. And if you can’t mould your technique to what you’re hearing, and what you want, then it’s a lot of… you’re a perfect version of nothing. Like, you can create that, but if it doesn’t show anything or it doesn’t mean anything, you’re just conducting air.
G: Yep. That’s right. It’s gotta be connected to your concept. And that’s why it’s important to study technique, so that it serves you; so it facilitates you. So that you can use it to express what you want it to express, so that the group see what you think you’re showing.
K: Ooh. Okay.
G: Because we can think we’re doing all kinds of stuff, but if that’s not what they’re seeing, y’know, what we have to really be sure of is whether what we think we’re showing is what they’re actually perceiving.
That’s where video is so useful. Right? Everybody thinks they’re doing the 4-pattern that their teacher shows them. So everybody is trying to do what we tell them to do, but it sits differently in everybody’s bodies. And so the video is a great lie detector, right? The video goes: “Well actually, your pattern’s way out here!” Or: “You’ve got T-Rex elbows” or whatever it is. So that’s a fantastic tool to help us.
And I think one of the things I find young conductors don’t have—and really could use more of—is the point of view of the music. It’s not enough just to show what’s happening with the beats; that’s not very interesting. And good players don’t need that. They need: “What else? What else ya got?”
K: I’m gonna cheat a little now.
G: Yeah, go for it.
K: -pulls out interview sheet- I think we’ve covered, like, a good chunk of this.
G: Well, I think—if that’s the same assignment, then—one of the things you want… the perspective is from the point of view of a player, right? And not from the point of view of a conductor. So the idea is, as a player, what I think a conductor should be. Which is really interesting, cause I’m also a conductor!
K: Yeah! And it’s also doubly interesting for me, as well—and this is sortof why I wanted to go to a conductor, as I was also considering interviewing one of the DMA students. But as a pianist, I don’t work under conductors like, 80% of the time. The largest chamber ensemble I’m in is, like, a piano trio. And in many respects, I’m the conductor there.
G: Mhm.
K: So… it’s interesting when you say that what we’re trying to show as conductors—going back into this as conductors—is one thing, and then what is being perceived is a completely other thing. And then I’ve got a third layer back, where I don’t have expectations of what to perceive. Um… how should I spin this into an interview question?
G: -chuckles-
K: How do you know—and what do you do when—players aren’t responding to what you’re showing?
G: Well, you know when you think you’re showing something and you’re not getting it back.
K: So the video is a good lie detector when you’re a young conductor, and like in a rehearsal situation. But what if students aren’t responding over the course of the first big chunk of work. Like, the first run; they’re just down. What happens, how can you tell—obviously you can tell in so many ways, but what are telltale things—and what do you do?
G: Okay. That’s a good question.
K: I gave you three parts!
G: That you did!
You can tell—I mean, the easy thing is you can tell when they’re not responding if they don’t do what you think you’re showing. That’s the first thing. So your ears tell you. Your eyes also tell you if they’re reading and they’re down in the book—
K: They’re unprepared?
G: —they’re unprepared, and there’s that; but in the early stages that’s not so unexpected. So they start 80% down and 20% up, and by the concert you want them 80% up and 20% down. So that’s alright, and what I might tend to do in the early stages of the rehearsal cycle is kinda conduct bigger than I need to; a little more obvious than I need to. So if they have half an eyeball up, they might catch a detail.
K: Yeah, so like feeding them that little extra bit.
G: Yep, a little bit of extra bit. And then, in important moments, on the seams—when we’re making changes to the tempo or places where things need to interlock, then…
K: What was it today in Traveller… or wait. It was m.113 in the last piece you were doing?
G: Mhm.
K: There was that transition into like a sortof space galaxy sound. So stuff like that?
G: Yep. Things like that. Those seams is when players need us. Like, they don’t really need us a lot of the time.
K: And yeah, good players don’t need the tempo fed at them every single step of the way.
G: Yeah! Absolutely. So we’re just gonna usher them through into the new thing.
But if they’re not responding, then the first thing I’ll do is try something different, physically. Right? And maybe instead of that…
-makes a small gesture-
If I want the accent to go booOOOm
-larger, heavier gesture-
Right? Cause then if they kinda look up and go like this -makes a face- then they sorta go “That’s the way it oughta be.” So a lot of it you can deal with non-verbally.
K: Mhm.
G: If they’re not looking, then at some point you need to stop and say: “Okay, this needs to be a little bigger.” You’ll see them get what that means. So I’ve told them: “Oh, she’s already showing us.” And the basic rule is that if you haven’t shown it, you don’t get to ask for it.
K: Ooh!
G: Right? It’s a rule we kinda hold ourselves to as conductors.
So if I’m just kinda going lalaLAlalala—
-makes a nondescript gesture-
—and I stop and ask for something that I haven’t shown, then that’s not fair.
K: Yeah. And the first point of contact is like, yourself.
G: Right, right. So yeah, the first thing I’ll do is I’ll have to exaggerate a little bit more; if I get a little bit, then I’ll ask them non-verbally for a little bit more. And sometimes, you go into a situation if you’re working with a group that’s new to you—like if I go into a clinic at a school or if I’m teaching at another university for a workshop or something—then it could be their culture is that they don’t watch much, right? And then you just have to start to give them a reason to look up.
K: Yeah. “Giving them a reason to look up.” I like that line!
G: Well, that’s right! If they look up, and they don’t like what they see, then they’re not going to look up again. If they get confused when they look up, they’re not going to look up again. So give them a reason to look up, and then at some point down the road you have say: “It would really be helpful if you were watching a little more carefully.”
K: Okay.
G: But again, give them lots of chances and lots of reasons to look up. Because if you can draw them into looking up, it’s a lot nicer than having to rein them into looking up.
K: Like, verbally at the end of thing, being like: “You have to look up.”
G: Yeah, well, or in the moment when things aren’t there and you can tell if they’re not really focused on making the transition you’re hoping to make. “It’d be really useful if you just look—I’m going to show this, if you do that.” And sortof saying “This is what I’m going to do; if you could respond in this specific way.”
So, y’know, in a way that’s not just saying “Watch!” Because that’s just the last thing you wanna ever say, right? Cause it’s meaningless.
K: Okay!
So not necessarily as a player, because—I’m not going to be like “Jeff, I interviewed this person who works with conductors!” because I’m interviewing you.
G: Well, I actually do play the trumpet, you know.
K: Well obvious—hmm. Maybe not “Obviously!” but I wouldn’t have been surprised…?
G: Mhm.
K: But… okay. So coming from the angle of both a conductor and a player, what do you like to see in other conductors? And what do you not like to see?
G: Mhm. Well I like to see expressivity, clarity of rhythm, and economy.
K: I think that comes through in your conducting!
G: -chuckles- Mhm. And that’s what I hope for when I look up. Just, y’know, something that isn’t going to confuse or get in the way.
K: Doubling back to the, uh, slightly uncalled for “Obviously!” comment—Kevin Vuong was talking to me about what he was going to do afterwards, and he kept stressing that you said that “In order to be a better conductor, you have to be a fantastic player and know what to go for sound-wise.”
So touching on that, and touching on clarity and expressiveness: What is that… that extra bit? Like, how do you do that extra bit on top of the meter, and on top of the transitions, and on top of all the things that conductors are expected to do? What makes a conductor good?
G: Hmm… mhm. Well I think that that’s a question you’re gonna get a different answer from whomever it is. But you’re asking me, aren’t you?
K: For sure!
G: Okay. Umm…
I think what makes a conductor good is someone who’s going to contribute to the product; and help coordinate it, and help enhance it; but allow the players to shine.
That concludes the bulk of the interview! Dr. MacKay is SO COOL so I’m super glad I got the chance to interview her for this assignment, and spin it into a really informative discussion. Hope y’all enjoyed too <3
Also, below are some post-interview chats; mostly for my own reference, but I figured I’d throw them up for completion’s sake.
K: Cool!
Aw, that’s such a good note to end on! Did I touch on everything?
-skims the assignment sheet while making weird sounds-
I think I’ve touched on everything.
G: Okay!
K: Do you have any questions for me that might help with my assignment, or just me as a musician in general?
G: Well…
K: -chuckles-
G: Why don’t you play in an ensemble?
K: Ah! So… interesting. I’ve done choir since, like, grade… whatever. Since tiny Kevin. Since 1, 2, 3…? And every year since then up till high school. In multiple choirs, sometimes. And then I’ve done Men’s Chorus, obviously—it’s mandatory—over first year and second year. I didn’t do it this year because I had too many credits, but I really miss it! So I’m going back next year.
G: OR you could play in a Wind Symphony!
K: So that’s the other thing! I played in chamber—string chamber—this year, and I was playing my instrument. Voice is secondary and I’ve been singing so long, but playing piano collaboratively in a chamber setting is SO FUN! And it’s also very good for listening to things. When you sing, you listen differently. And obviously a lot of those things from choral cross over into instrumental, as well. Like looking up for those things that you need! And being together by listening, not just by counting and all the rudimentary things.
But playing your instrument and listening is so much different—it’s kinda scary! Like, this thing is an extension of you, and you have to make it work with everyone else’s extensions of them.
G: Yeah!
K: It’s like, that extra layer. I don’t… know why I don’t play in a Wind Symphony!
G: Well, have you done a lot of playing with a conductor?
K: No!
G: You’ve done a lot of singing with a conductor!
K: Done a lot of singing with a conductor.
G: Which means you’d probably be good at playing with a conductor, because it’s important to know how to follow a conductor and you know how, and not all pianists know.
K: And I’m good at listening, because I play in a chamber ensemble.
G: Yeah. So I had Michelle Lin play with me; that’s her ensemble credit.
K: Oh! That’s kinda cool.
G: Talk to Jeff! Once you get your assignments turned in.